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Post by Matt Droz on Nov 13, 2007 12:43:58 GMT -5
I love that article.
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Post by Keikan300 on Nov 13, 2007 21:30:37 GMT -5
<hangs head and quietly sobs>
This is SOOOO not right.
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Post by Matt Droz on Nov 25, 2007 9:49:55 GMT -5
Sorry, but this is starting to get just silly now. "Quests!"Are they going to give special items that you can only get by completing the quest for the poor merchant's daughter? Maybe you get a really nice looking hat or cape!!
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Post by Keikan300 on Nov 25, 2007 19:03:50 GMT -5
If I say, I told you so.... will I be yelled at again? When I heard about the entire 4th edition, I had a strong feeling that it was going down a bad road. It seems that from what I am reading... I was not entirely wrong. There might be some redeeming value to the system (still waiting to see it). " When the players have cards or some other visual representation of their quests, it's easy for them to remember what they're supposed to be doing -- " Do they think that we are too stupid to write it down ourselves? Oh the pain!!!
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Post by Matt Droz on Nov 27, 2007 17:27:01 GMT -5
Feats in 4th edition:
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Post by Keikan300 on Dec 12, 2007 6:32:50 GMT -5
Here is a bunch of info that I gleaned from another board... This may be old news, but it is still an interesting read...
From ENWorld[/u] ...Here are additional details from the Races and Classes book (I'm holding it as I type this). All these tidbits are from the first half (Races) of the book. Ability damage is gone.
Dragonborn scales are bronze or golden in color.
Elves are now as tall (or taller) than humans, though still very slender and graceful.
Halflings are described as having the tendency to "acquire" things due to intense curiosity (much as the Dragonlance kender do). They are now a bit taller than before, about 4 feet on average, weighing about 65 pounds.
Azers and galeb-dur are mentioned as once-dwarves who became completely enslaved by their ancient giant masters.
Tieflings are not human and demonic offspring, but are the true-breeding descendants of an ancient empire that made dark and terrible pacts with the Nine Hells. Their fiendish visage is actually a manifestation of a curse, due to their progenitors' crimes. They're more closely tried to devils than demons.
Known gods include Bahamut, Corellon (god of magic), Io ("the ancient diety," now dead and split into Bahamut and Tiamat), Lolth, Moradin, Obad-Hai (god of the wilderness), Sehanine (goddess of the moon), Tiamat, and Zehir (god of night).
In General: As you already know, all races can select racial feats that allow racial traits to develop and expand as the character rises in level. Level adjustments are gone, with all the new races largely equal in power. It is also mentioned that when drow finally appear in some future text, many of their powerful racial abilities (levitation, darkness, etc.) will be relegated to feats to balance them out.
Humans: Now referred to as the most “resilient” race, they receive some kind of feat bonus (“a little extra treat”) and racial feats that involve “dramatic action and dramatic recovery.”
Dragonborn: No longer the race born of a special pact with Bahamut as presented in Races of the Dragon, these guys have been the lesser cousins of dragons since the beginning. In the Points of Light setting, they once ruled a mighty empire later destroyed in a cataclysmic war with the Tiefling empire, and are now organized into wandering clans which sometimes serve as mercenary companies. They have a reputation as honorable warriors who keep their word, but are sometimes arrogant and easily offended. Their racial feats involve things like breath weapons and wings.
Dwarves: Pretty much the same, but their back history now involves an era in which they were slaves to giants, which explains the enmity between the two races. It is also mentioned that most races, including dwarves, no longer possess darkvision (but dwarves have low-light vision). Dwarves also no longer possess a Charisma penalty, and their racial abilities are oriented towards the defender role and underground adaptation.
As an aside, it is mentioned that dwarf women do not have beards, and the new artwork makes them look a lot more feminine, which was intentional on the part of the designers.
Elves/Eladrin: These were once the same race, along with the drow. They inhabited the Feywild, a faerie realm that exists alongside the human-dominated one, but a war precipitated by the drow split the race into three. Basically, elves embody the nature-oriented aspect of elves, and eladrin the magical one. Other elven subraces will exist, but the differences between them will simply be cultural—gray elves, sun elves and moon elves will be eladrin and wood, green and wild elves just elves. Not much is said about the racial abilities elves and eladrin possess, other than elves make for good rangers and eladrin good wizards.
It is also mentioned that 4E elves and eladrin will be taller in stature.
Halflings: These also get a stature boost, and will now be about four feet tall on average. They are now presented as a nomadic race that travels on river barges, one that is instrumental in promoting trade amongst the races, granting them something of an “invisible empire” across the land. They are differentiated from hobbits in that they are lean and athletic rather than portly (and now they wear shoes, too). Their racial abilities evidently involve luck, trickery and trade. It is also mentioned they are good at raising and training animals.
Tieflings: The 4E Tieflings evolved from the corrupt nobility of an ancient, powerful human empire that trafficked with devils to increase their power. As mentioned above, this empire was destroyed in a titanic war with the Dragonborn empire. Not much is said about their racial abilities, other than they have been expanded since 3E and they make good Warlocks. It is also once mentioned that they are “charming,” so I suppose the Charisma penalty is gone.
Other races: A Celestial race, Drow, Gnomes and Warforged are also evidently in the works, but little had been decided on at the time the book was printed, so I guess they won’t be in the first Player’s Handbook. Warforged will apparently be a core race, and it is mentioned that construct immunities will be toned down in 4E. The Celestial race will not be called the Aasimar, and will be a race “plunged through the same transforming fires” as the Tiefling. Gnomes are apparently proving problematic to design--they went through several concepts and rejected them all, with no decision having been reached at the time the book was finished.
Power Sources: Additional power sources will be added in subsequent handbooks. It is stated, as an example, that there will be a Psi power source later on for psionics. Given this, the mind-affecting spells of wizards and clerics will be toned down or removed so that psions will have their own flavor. This is because the designers felt psionics weren’t different enough from magic before.
Prestige Classes: Gone. There are replaced by Paragon paths (Levels 11-20) and Epic Paths (21-30). These paths will include new abilities characters of the appropriate classes can select, and some are taken from the old prestige classes (mystic adept, arcane archer, and weapon masters are mentioned, as are some new options like Prince of Knaves). Epic Paths also have something to do with the character’s destiny, and also open up new powerful abilities.
Level Bonuses: Characters no longer have different rates of progression for attack bonuses and saving throws based on their class—these all progress at the same rate now. Every 10th level character will have a +5 bonus to AC, to hit, and all three saves, though class abilities, feats and ability scores will influence these. Presumably, Defenders will have more class abilities that grant attack bonuses to make them the best combatants. Every character at first level possesses certain boosts to these traits as Star Wars Saga Edition characters do (so a fighter probably starts with a +2 Fortitude save bonus, etc.).
Feats: Certain feats require a certain character level, race or skill, but none require a certain class. This makes it easier to expand characters beyond their intended role if desired.
Alignment: One major change to this system in 4E is the fact characters can choose to be “unaligned,” having no significant impulses towards good or evil. Characters can still choose to be good or evil (law and chaos are not mentioned), but most characters and monsters will be unaligned. Unsurprisingly, most spells and powers that revolve around alignment are now gone.
Now on to the classes-five are detailed in length in the book. Presumably, these are the classes that will definitely make the first Player’s Handbook:
Cleric: One major change the cleric has undergone is that in addition to spells he or she will also possess rituals and healing prayers, which will encompass most of the healing spells the cleric possessed in 3E. (Presumably, these will be at-will, per-encounter or per-day abilities.) Consequently, cleric spells will now mostly involve buffs and combat spells (and a great many brand-new spells have been created for the cleric). Also, all classes will possess the ability to heal themselves to some degree (possibly the SW Saga Ed. second wind?), and Leaders are able to grant an increase to this ability. In sum, clerics will no longer be called upon to heal as much as they used to, and will be able to participate in battles more. It is also stated that clerics will not be as powerful vis-à-vis the other classes as they were in 3E, and that summoning spells have been removed from their spell lists (likely to appear in a later volume).
Fighter: In addition to receiving powers akin to the maneuvers in Tome of Battle, they will have a number of other abilities to increase their hardiness, “stickiness” (meaning the difficulty foes encounter in getting past/around them) and armor proficiency (they will have the exclusive ability to retain a greater amount of their Dex bonus than other classes while wearing heavy armor). Feats and fighter powers will allow a sword & shield fighter to accumulate greater AC bonuses and the ability to defend others.
Rogue: Not too much has changed—sneak attack will still be vital for this class, but it will be even easier to set up. Virtually all monsters can be sneak attacked now, even golems and such. Rogues will still be the most skill-based characters, but the skill list has been streamlined and cut in half as it was in SW Saga Ed. (Hide and Sneak are one skill, etc.).
Warlocks: In 4E, these are arcane Strikers, able to do a great deal of damage to one or two foes at a time. They can align themselves with fey spirits, devils, demons or the “stars and the darkness between them.” Their abilities will include transportation effects, invocations, curses and a powerful melee attack called Soul Ruin. They also have the ability to use Pacts, meaning that it looks like they absorbed the Binder, and each Pact will grant per-encounter curses.
Wizards: Schools of magic are gone, replaced by foci (orb, staff, wand, with more to come in later books possibly). The orb foci involves terrain control and retributive and perception effects, staves ranged blasting, and wands long distance control and defense. In addition to spells, wizards will also possess rituals that deal with item creation. Metamagic feats are gone, though spells can still be boosted by Wizard powers and other feats. In addition, since characters can buy any kind of feats they want, it is mentioned that you could turn a Wizard into a 3E-style Warmage or Duskblade by buying weapon, armor and melee attack feats, as 4E Wizards no longer suffer from arcane spell failure in armor.
Following this, there is a section on “Other Classes,” with a few short notes about the other classes which were not so developed at the time the book was finished:
Barbarians: The 4E Barbarian will be all about the rage, with many different rage effects to choose from. They will also be more feral—one cited barbarian ability involves him biting his opponent after his melee attack.
Paladins: Their powers are being completely redone, as the designers felt they were lacking in 3E (notably the Smite ability). Unsurprisingly, they will possess several different kinds of smiting abilities.
Bards: Drawing their powers from “otherworldly patrons,” Bards will possess many abilities related to illusion and mental trickery. They will retain their inspirational and lore knowledge abilities.
Druids: The 4E Druid will heavily emphasize sharp-changing abilities, and will possess a spell list with ranged firepower and utility effects.
Monk: Not much has changed-will probably be designed as a Striker.
Rangers: Also seem little unchanged.
Sorcerers: It is stated that Sorcerers will barely be in control of their magical abilities, but whether or not this means they’ll function somewhat like wild mages is unclear. It does mention that a Sorcerer who casts a cold spell might have a protective aura of freezing cold around him afterwards for a short while.
Swordmage: Arcane Defenders who use magical protection as opposed to armor. They are designed as melee specialists with few ranged attack powers.
Warlord: Much as described before, but they also mention an example of a Warlord power called “Feather Me Yon Oaf!” (they often use humorous titles as stand-ins until they come up with the real one). When the Warlord uses this ability, his allies get an immediate action to draw a missile weapon and shoot the Warlord’s designated target.
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Lunalynx
Thespian
If you can't solve all your problems with violence, you need a better plasma gun.
Posts: 133
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Post by Lunalynx on Dec 16, 2007 22:01:10 GMT -5
I will say that I find all of this fascinating. I was far too young the last time I was in a shifting demographic to think about it and it's repercussions, but this is really cool! I freely admit that while reading this I can only think of one thing: my "gifted" students might finally be able to get into this. Most of the changes seem very reminiscent of MMOs and of course the Tolkien references we would expect, but it's streamlined in a way that my students can really understand. The cards give the more tactile learners something to hold on to and keep track of, while the progression of levels and saving throws and armor makes it more in line with the other games they are used to playing. Same thing with the quests. (Though I might not have minded the cards when my other group forgot to write down who took what treasure and our DMs rules are "don't have it written down, don't have it." Almost cost me a lovely gold plated halfling skull and a set of keys.) In part it does stink (I wanted a 4.0 Hexblade) and I know just because it's out doesn't mean we have to switch, but seeing how this might actually inspire my students to do something that might involve human contact makes me a little happy. Even the artwork has a more anime-ish quality, something the current 18-24 year olds identify with and buy. I might not like all of it, I mean I really hate the trolls, but I know several freshmen and sophomores who think this stuff is neat. The only time I will feel truly insulted by Wizards, is when they start marketing D&D themed diaper bags and bottles for the outgoing now 29-40 demographic. Then I think I might feel a little too old. Plus on the bright side someone finally got my idea about the Rogues. I mean come on, if I can sneak up on it, flank it, and/or otherwise not have it realize I'm behind it I SHOULD get my sneak attack bonus!
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Post by Keikan300 on Dec 17, 2007 6:08:29 GMT -5
Who would have thought that D&D would ever be I.E.P. compliant?? All things aside, it seems to me that the system is not being changed for an other reason than WotC/Hasbro wants to get a game that they can mass-market. The thing with the cards is a joke. I mentioned before.. the game is being dumbed down in many ways and being made harder in others. I hav benn a huge fan of D&D due to it's rule system, back from beginning... THAC0 just sucked in my opinion. This new round of changes has just cemented my opinion...
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Post by Matt Droz on Dec 17, 2007 7:53:34 GMT -5
I appreciate Hasbro wanting to make money off the MMO crowd. And I appreciate them wanting to get new people into the game. I even get that it's the next logical step after 3.0 since that version was "dumbed down" from 2nd edition.
But, they are NOT promoting the social aspect of the game. They are promoting the "virtual tabletop" so that you can play anytime/anywhere and not interact with people ever again. Unless you don't sign on for D&D Insider (which, of course, all the new people will), you won't get the cool online character tracker and online miniature builder that will look just like your character. They are moving away from dice, they are moving away from character sheets, moving away from using M&M's and Gummi Bears as hordes of undead or goblins, and they are moving away from a group of friends sitting around a table and having fun.
They are making the game Hackmaster on the PC. And they are screwing all the companies that set themselves up as third part d20 games.
And Simon, ease back a bit. I'm sensing some bad vibes coming from your post and Jess was expressing her opinion.
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Post by Keikan300 on Dec 17, 2007 8:53:49 GMT -5
And Simon, ease back a bit. I'm sensing some bad vibes coming from your post and Jess was expressing her opinion. Sorry.. no bad vibes intended... It is that I just never thought of a RPG being made accessible for "gifted" people. The IEP's (Individualized Educational Profiles) are set up. Personally, I feel that there is a HUGE gap between what some of the IEP's are meant to do and what they end up doing in actuality. Recently, I had a student excused for selling drugs in the school, becasue of an IEP and another student punched a pregnant woman in the stomach.. deliberately and he too was excused!!! IEP's, when abised like this really piss me off.. SO.. no ill will was meant to be purveyed towards Jess.. But like I said, it struck me as interesting that a game company would do that. I'm glad that opinions can be posted freely... that is why I post here. I know that opinions can cause tensions at times but I would hope that maturity would help us ride through those moments and realize that everybody is entitled to their own opinions. Besides... I always liked a healthy debate.
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